On this week's Industrial Talk we're talking to Mike Kotzian, Managing Director – USA for Kivnon about “Simple Automated Guided Solutions”.  Get the answers to your “AGV” questions along with Mike's unique insight on the “How” on this Industrial Talk interview!

Finally, get your exclusive free access to the Industrial Academy and a series on “Why You Need To Podcast” for Greater Success in 2022. All links designed for keeping you current in this rapidly changing Industrial Market. Learn! Grow! Enjoy!

MIKE KOTZIAN'S CONTACT INFORMATION:

Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-kotzian-16856712/

Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kivnon/

Company Website: https://kivnon.com/

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

company, solution, people, industrial, conversation, vehicles, units, mike, simple, hardhat, automated, technology, safety, easy, big, important, software, event, amr, industry

00:00

On this episode of industrial talk, we're talking about simple, automated guided vehicle solutions. Now, I'm all about simple as you can imagine, and we're talking to Mike Kotzian. And he is with Kivnon. We're gonna just don't have to lay the lumber of why this is so important. Let's get going.

00:24

Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hardhat, grab your work boots, and let's go Oh, looky,

00:42

looky, we're back. We're back celebrating new industrial heroes all around the world. Because you are bold, you are brave, you're daring greatly. You're solving problems. Yeah, you're collaborating? Absolutely. And you're making my lives and the lives of many around the world better. Wow. That's why we celebrate you on this particular podcast, as mentioned, my cop scenes in the hot seat, give nine is the company. And you know, we're just talking about automated vehicles. But for me, personally, simple is better. So let's get cracking. I'm all about simple. I think if you make things difficult for people to understand, they're not gonna they're not gonna listen to you. I think if you make it difficult to try to deploy something, you're not going to have great success. Because I think that, especially now and I think where innovation is heading, I think innovation is has been heading to the point where the end user is just paramount. Simple is better, getting it in the hands of the the frontline people or wherever it's supposed to get in the hands of. And if you make that solution, easy, powerful and usable. You've got a success model right there, baby. And I think there are many companies out there that are really working hard and diligently on doing that. All right. On the calendar, I want to be able to sort of pump an event that I think that you need to go to. It is the IoT solutions World Congress event it is in Barcelona, it is May 10 through the 12th. And you're saying Scott, why do I want to do that? You want to do it, because it's important for us to get back to whatever that next normal is. And that means face to face conversation, a little bit of human interaction, get more done when you're, you know, you're right there face to face, looking right at the individual. That is a great event, because of COVID hadn't been there for a couple years. Of course, like many haven't. But it's in Barcelona and my recommendation, my TED hardhat recommendation, IoT solutions World Congress is where it's at another point, one conference to Dotto, you're saying to yourself, Scott, what is that I'm tired of, you know, all of the number dot O type of solutions, but this one's different. And the reason is, is that if we are to get together, get back together, get get sort of the, you know, the blending of both the virtual important, we're all working from our home, and just it's just the way the world is going right now. But I think real successful companies are going to be focused on that real human interaction, whatever that takes that face to face human interaction. And I think events such as IoT solutions, world, Congress and others, are just absolutely great at that. Now, what do I mean by No, I think God are the days of, you know, prepaid debit, we'd go to these events just because it was in our budget, and we'd go there, drink some good cocktails and eat some great food and Yuk it up with people at the event. But really did things really get progressed, I think that we need to start thinking of these events as real strategic engagement engagements. And to be able to do that we have to really plan. There's like a pre plan our meetings, plan, our connections, plan on the, for lack of a better term, the prospects we want to get in front of, and then there's the the during, right, you're going to sit there and you got your stuff all laid out. You're going to be talking about it, you've got that conversation happening. And then of course, one of the most important components of course, is the post and that is the follow up. That's the nurturing and that's what you need to do. But it requires a lot of effort to get to those those three steps. Now. I call it conference to Dotto because what I do here at industrial talk is this ecosystem that is being created with Great companies great leaders, is that

05:04

we create that whole strategy in the beginning, get people on the podcast, get people sponsoring, get people having that conversation and highlighting, right, highlighting what they are doing, highlighting that subject matter, get it going, have that conversation, create that relationship, that friendship, and be able to have that asset that, that interview that that conversation asset. And during the conference, we're there on site, man, this is on site, boom, we're working. And we're interviewing the best, the best that these companies have to offer. But the most important component is after and you know, we'll create a video and we'll create all the great content, the interviewing content, the media content, everything there from the event, fun stuff. It's all fun, it better be fun. It better be entertaining, right? Oh, you're not gonna listen to it. You're not even gonna watch it. Why would you watch it? So that's our model. But the best part about it is after the fact, this is where you begin to nurture. This is where you begin to collaborate. This is where you begin to begin to develop those real meaningful relationships, the friendships that come out as a result of these events. Important, but you got to keep at it. You can't let it go. And but I'm going to just sort of throw a little wrinkle in there. Yeah, you've got a great solution. Don't get me wrong, great solution, thumbs up everything all fine and dandy with that. But how about it, if you take this approach, if you're truly destined, you're truly passionate, if you're truly committed to the, your, your existing customer, or your prospects success? That to me is a collaborative conversation. Sure, I could say, Hey, I do this. But I think that we don't have all the answers. And if I'm looking for solutions, and I have an idea that, you know, company, a over here has the right solutions for you. I better I better have the integrity and the the the moral fortitude to say, hey, company, I, you need to go over here. I think they have the the solutions. I think each conference needs to go by that model. To to get the most out of all the engagements, we just have to be able to get that this this. This ecosystem, the industrial talk ecosystem is focused on getting the most out of and fill in the blank, and doing it the best possible way and adjusting to get the most out of conferences, to get the most out of connections to get the most out of whatever it might be. I think that that is key to your marketing, and sales, focus and strategy. How about that for a rant? Do it pre during post, get engaged, face to face solutions? collaboration, innovation? It's all there and make it doggone fun. And entertaining. There. That's it. Kip not. I'm interested in the automated solution, right? And these vehicles that are autumn autonomous and automated and doing work. I always had the thinking that oh, what is that gonna do to dig up my floor, you got to do certain things. Give not has a great solution. Simple. You can you can tip your little toesies in the cold water and say hey, alright, here we go. We're gonna just start out small. And then that scale from there. I'm always about that incremental approach right now, especially when it comes to innovation technology. And and finding people you can trust. That's a big one. Mike, give not you can trust them. They've got the TED hardhat approval from me or industrial talk. So enjoy the conversation. Mike, welcome to industrial talk. Thank you very much for tight, finding time in your busy schedule to talk to the best listeners around the world. And that is industrial talk. How're you doing

09:16

today? Really good. Scott. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

09:20

I'm telling you, I'm excited about this conversation. I'm always I'm always excited about all the conversations I believe industry is is is what's going to help us get through all of this stuff, whatever this stuff is, whatever pain you're feeling, industry, whatever challenge you're dealing with people industry. There you go. That's a plug to you. Okay. All right. For the listeners out there. Give us a little background little 411 on who Mike is. Yeah, sure. So

09:47

I'm Mike Kotze. And I'm the Managing Director for kivinen canines and AGV company automated guided Vehicle Company. I've been doing automated guided vehicles for 24 years now. I'm an ATV guy. That's that's what I that's what I know. That's what I do. So yeah, so

10:04

can you I know I have to interrupt real quick, just so you've seen a change quite a bit. 24 years, I didn't know it was around that long.

10:13

So that's what's funny is actually it's been around a lot longer than that. The EGP was invented in 1954 by Arthur, Mac Barrett and Illinois. It was called the guide ematic. And he started a company called electronics. And actually, you can still see some of those units run rolling around today from the early 80s Barrett electronics. Wow, that

10:33

is pretty doggone cool. Love the history. And you're a history buff. I like that. Now, let's get into the interview. Let's get into the conversation. Okay, what's the problem? What, why is AGV? What is the problem we're trying to deal with? And what are we trying to solve?

10:50

Yeah, I mean, I just I just looked actually, before we talked, because I think there's roughly 11 million job openings in the United States right now. I think there's somewhere around 6 million people in unemployment. So I mean, you do the math, right? We're trying to get, you know, there's all these supply chain issues, right? There's, you know, workforce issues. I mean, everybody's facing it, right. So AGVs is an option right now, to automate processes, whether it's simple or complex, we're, you know, traditionally, maybe you would have had a tiger driver or a person doing it. And maybe, actually, if you're running 24/7, you would have had three or four people doing it, you know, over a week, a week span, and you can do it with AGVs, automatically. No, right. So, I mean, I think, years past, we were fighting the issue of maybe, let's say, replacing jobs, but I think right now, you know, that conversation is long gone.

11:45

And you know, what's interesting, I'm not, I'm not gonna sit there and get all political, I don't understand why. Why there's such a disconnect between unemployment and, and, and these job openings, maybe, I don't know, but people who complain about their job being automated or something going away. I mean, this is the real, this is the reality of, of what's taking place out in the market. I've got to keep my doors open. I've got to figure out a solution. I can't find people to do the job. Whatever that problem is, I've got to do something. And I like that, because that the the AGV it's not just warehouse, right. It's in manufacturing. It's one of the applications of these automated guided vehicles.

12:32

Yeah, so I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty broad. I mean, the the roots of ATVs is really strong in manufacturing, and really strong in automotive, to be honest. And I mean, that's kind of our bread and butter. I mean, we're moving, we're moving material, whether it's, you know, parts parts of a car, basically, to assemble a car, right, we're delivering, you know, headliners or years, different parts, right, you know, for you to deliver. But you know, that there is a lot in warehousing and things like that as well. Right? It really depends. I mean, there's a lot of AGV companies out there. I like I said, I've been doing ATVs a long time. You know, there's a lot of food and beverage is huge, you know, but they're specific vehicles that fit for that, right. And then warehousing, right, so you see little AMRs autonomous mobile robots, you see AGVs, automated guided vehicles, AGCs carts, there's a lot of different names for them. And they, they all kind of fit differently, right? Whether you're an E commerce with an Amr, or whether you're in a big, you know, like a, you know, a beverage company we're using, like a big forklift style AGV or, you know, kind of more what we do is, is really strong in a lot of manufacturing where we're, we're delivering the parts to line to assemble a vehicle.

13:46

Amr clarify that real quick,

13:48

yep, that's an autonomous mobile robot. And, and I've said this before, there's, there is no governor of the AGV, a Yamaha or AGC space, right. So there is overlap, but I mean, there's AMR companies typically are smaller units. There's, there's quite a few out there. That's a newer, you know, newer kind of companies technology, Kiva was one of the bigger ones in 2014. I think Amazon bought bought Kiva. And that was sort of revolutionary in terms of, you know, the technology what they were doing goods to person for E commerce and, you know, Amazon bought the company rather than continue to source from them

14:29

that night. Why not?

14:33

It also made it so that their competitors, you know, couldn't have it right. But so, you know, that's the AMR space autonomous mobile robots, and those are smaller units. And those are more goods to person, you'll see that a lot more in E commerce.

14:45

So if I'm a manufacturer, and I'm struggling, just to reality, I'm struggling to find resources. My line is being hampered. And I'm overworking the existing resources that I do have just because I have to What is the typical financial return on investment for your solution or any solutions that's associated with AGV?

15:12

Yeah, I mean, so that's, and I've seen that sir, sort of changed a little bit over the years to in terms of, you know, there used to be really strict ROI, maybe if some of the automotive companies might have like a one year payback, and that was really always difficult to to achieve. So, I mean, with the simpler solutions with the AGCs, which is more like kind of our style, like I said, automated guided carts, kind of like they're smaller units. And in manufacturing, it's, it's easier now to get a one to two year, you know, return on your investment, you know, a lot of the bigger units and things like that it's a little more difficult. And it depends, too, if you're running like 24/7, that's, we kind of always have this sort of red light, yellow light, green light. So like, if you're running one shift, and you're like a low wage rate, that's really difficult to get a payback. But if you're running, you know, three to four shifts, let's say full time 24/7, especially in high wage rate areas, it's really easy to get, you know, one to two year pay.

16:09

It's interesting. Yeah, I never thought of it that way. You're right. If you're just if you're a nine to five type of business. Yeah, no, that's it. That's a tough one. But if you're around the clock, hi, wait, that's interesting. Now, we've got carts, we've got robots, and we've got vehicles. That's what I've heard so far. Yep. Yeah. The, the question I would have, if I was evaluating whether I need to go around, down the road of automation is, do I? Do I look at my business in such a way that I can say, Okay, here's, here's my entry level I want to deal with here. But then, you know, maybe three or four years from now, I want to be up here? Is it scalable, easily scalable?

16:57

Yeah, for sure. For sure. AGVs. For me, I've always said, because I've worked at some bigger companies, where we did large $40 million integrated systems, right, and AGVs it's an entry level into automation. I mean, you can do $100,000, you know, to vehicle system and, and get into automation, that'll, you know, a low price point. And then yeah, I mean, you you can scale in terms of adding vehicles and, and expanding, and then on the software side, too, you can a lot of times, it depends on the company, you know, but you can start at sort of an A to B push button, let's say, you know, two vehicles back and forth from A to B, you can eventually, you know, maybe have a 1015 vehicle system that you're actually doing a lot more on the software side, like maybe managing the inventory, your the locations are doing some more decision making and things like that.

17:46

So just keep an eye on provide the software component.

17:50

Yeah, so our AGVs all have PLCs. Onboard, typically, which is a little unique in the industry gives a lot more flexibility. A lot of a lot of companies have industrial PCs on board. But then in terms of, you know, from the software side, like I said, you can start from just a simple push button back and forth type unit in our system, let's say and then you can kind of have maybe mid level where you're maybe managing a location or to like, you know, especially with manufacturing, like you, typically you're delivering a full, right, and then you grab the empty, right, that's, that's real typical in the industry. So, you know, the AGV system can kind of make that decision of okay, here, I dropped and so then I pick from here, next time I drop here and pick from basic right now we're starting to grow up the software a little bit. And then that can actually get all the way to where you're, you know, either interfacing or actually working like a WMS or, you know, a WBS or something like that.

18:47

Bu am as b s warehouse management, software management software, and then WBS

18:58

WBS. When execution software, I'm not a software guy, I say this all the time engineer, but yeah, that's the software side, you can really start to grow. And most companies have their own WMS already, right? Yeah. Something but so you can interface with that. That's pretty common to interface with it. And then sometimes you can kind of function as one gray as well, if it's, you know, maybe a smaller area, you know, not that many locations.

19:28

So I'm, I'm, I'm interested in the the to cart solution. And I like your price point. I'm interested in that that'll on tip in my dipping my toes into the water of automation. I say yes. Give me the time. That and I I understand it's there's a swag here but generally speaking, time to actually implementation and execution.

19:58

Yeah, so right now for our standard units for Something like that it would be around six months, which, I mean, there's a lot of supply chain issues, we're not immune to that. But, you know, our operations director did a really good job. Kind of planning ahead. And with our, with our standard units, you know, as little as six months, you know, depending on the system, I mean, you know, some units might be up to nine months for a system, some still within a year.

20:24

But do I have to? How do these units are guided on the floor?

20:34

Yes, our units are typical, our magnetic tape, which is, you know, it's it's a I don't see down and dirty technology has been around for quite a while. It's easy, it's a, it's a, it's a less expensive navigation technology, there's RFID tags on the side that kind of give it you know, sort of the decision making them slow down, go charge speed of change scanner things. But, you know, you lay the tape on the floor, we also have infrastructure free, they call it mapping. It's basically a slam technology that uses the environment as well. We have some of those units as well. But I mean, our, like I said, our bread and butter is sort of the, you know, more industrial mouse style AGVs that are running on a magnetic tape,

21:17

saying I like that I like the magnetic tape just because I, let's say, Today, my four looks like this, whatever this is, and I'm running some tape down here. And then tomorrow, I get a great contract that requires me to modify my floor, plan my layout, then I can feel comfortable knowing that it's just tape. It's not something that goes right into the concrete. And it's there forever. So it has some flexibility that I like, I'm always about flexibility, but that and I would imagine, you could say, Yeah, okay, I see your shift in your floor. So what we'll do is we'll lay this out, we'll just we'll do it this way. And so your, your implementation is quicker, too, as well.

22:03

Yeah, the tape is easy. You mean it's it's cheap. You know? Yeah, there's, there's other companies I worked at that use it as well. I mean, it's, you can put protective cover on it, you can epoxy, it becomes a little more permanent that point. But yes, I mean, you can in, you know, on demand, you can sort of lay tape and like, make a why and make it turn this way. I mean, it's, uh, you know, I've seen it many, many times, you know, it's really easy to modify. It's Hot Wheels. Yeah, sure, you can change the tracks change the track, I see my six year old daughter do it, Claire, she's on track.

22:37

I wanted to go around this now. Exactly. Which is not bad. It's not a bad idea. I like that. And it allows me to get my my foot in the door of automation, and see the value the benefits. And and see from an I'm a firm believer that if you're not in the game, and you're not thinking about it, you don't know the questions to ask you don't know what you're trying to use the technology for. So get in the game, I see that that is, is a vital component. Now, there's always roadblocks I get it. I can automate. That's great. I'm dealing with some resource challenges. Yes, that's reality of it. But what are the roadblocks? What are we talking about? What What prevents people from going that way?

23:20

Yeah, so we always try to identify those early too, right. So it, it can be an issue. So I always recommend people to get their IT group involved early because that can be a roadblock if they don't want you to VPN in or be on the network, different things like that. So if you're a company that's, you know, trying to implement AGVs definitely get your IT people on board early, let them know what you're doing. That always helps safety is another big one, right? So if you've got a big safety department group, they need to know, you know, if they don't know about AGVs, if you have an enemy for them, you know, that's a lot of times a stumbling block. If, if you've got a big safety crew, and they've already, you know, you've got multiple sites with ATVs, it's a lot easier. So you definitely want to get safety involved as well. I mean, those are the other issues.

24:04

What are the safety concerns? I have to pull on that string? What is that?

24:08

Yeah, safety is huge. I mean, safety for ATVs is huge. And I mean, and there has been a ton of developments over the years to make them safer and safer and safer. The safety spec that basically governs AGVs and CB 56.5 That's that's the main safety spec. It I don't want to say it's sort of a minimal safety spec. I mean, it kind of it still makes vehicle safe and solution safe. But there's responsibility on both parts. It's not just the AGV company has responsibility that the company implementing the AGVs has their own responsibility as well. Whether to train the operators how to be around and put put signs up things like that. They have some they have a lot of responsibilities. Yeah, come on.

24:55

I mean, I get it and you're in the business. The AGV companies are in a bit have definitely delivering a solution to a problem. And if if safety is a challenge, you're gonna, you're gonna build it in there, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to figure that out, or nobody's gonna use your product. And people are getting run over by your, your, your product, nobody will like that. No better. Sure. So I do like that. So we've got it issues. How many times I have that conversation? roadblocks, it just happens all the time. Okay. Yeah, you're not immune to it either. It sounds to me that it's important to get the sort of leadership involved to say, this is where we need to go, this is the strategic direction we are heading. And this is why it's important. And then as probably deals with a lot of the other internal resistance to be able to, you know, deploy the solution.

25:59

Yeah, yeah, you got, I mean, it depends to a bigger company, when corporate let's say, has a plan to put AGVs in, it goes down to the plant level, you still got to get plant level buy in right, either, you know, from the operations managers and the plant manager, people, it's, I've seen it, I've seen struggles a little bit where there's sort of a corporate mandate, right? Nobody likes, you know, at the plant level to hear that if they're not worried. So, no, but it is it does definitely help to have executive sponsorship, especially executives and corporate people that have had experience with them, let's say from another company, right? And they're rolling into a different company bringing their expertise and say, Hey, this is what we did. You know? So

26:36

I'll tell you one, one word, Amazon, Amazon's all in. If Amazon's all in and I know that I use Amazon, you need to consider doing the same thing. You need to figure this out. If they're in. They've got a competitive advantage. It's, it's obvious. Yeah. So you know, make it happen. All right. So what we have is we've got sort of a six month for a simple type of solution. We're looking at cards. Is it scalable? Yes. And I just, I love the I love the approach. Now. Just remember, we've got a couple of issues that have to be addressed. That's it, as well as safety. But I think that that those are two issues that can be overcome. And just remember, once again, Amazon, all right, my academy people get a hold of you insane. This is cool conversation. I want to get a hold of Mike.

27:27

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn for sure. Kip nine, you can find us Kip nine.com. And you can follow Kevin on USA on Twitter.

27:36

All right, that's Mike Kotzen. That's coyote Zian. KYV, non ki V and O. N is the company. Once again, LinkedIn. God bless me. Because you can always find their stat card out somebody stat card out there, get a little flavor, find the website can do all of that. All right. That was an excellent conversation there. Mike. Appreciate your time.

28:04

Awesome, Scott. I can always talk AGVs

28:09

See, I think it's so cool. I don't know, man. It's a it's a it's an odd time. I mean, I I can geek out. I'm a fan of Discovery Channel and, and Smithsonian channel, and they do all of that garbage.

28:22

I love that. And I always like being able to talk to somebody about it besides my wife cuz she's tired of hearing about it. So yeah, I hear Yeah. Hey, did you know that we could do it here?

28:34

I'm going Oh, cool. All right. Thank you, Mike. All right, listeners. We're not we're gonna have all the links and contact information for from Mike out on industrial talk.com. So stay tuned. We will be right back.

28:49

You're listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network.

28:59

All right. Ah, harder harder. Thank you to Mike for joining me. On the industrial talk podcast, Kivnon company. Simple is the best way that I can possibly sum up the conversation. automated vehicles simple. Yeah. Reach out. Great stat card out on LinkedIn. You will not be disappointed. Again. 10 hardhat, approval, trusted, trusted individual. You won't be disappointed. All right. May 10 to 12 IoT solutions World Congress, Barcelona. Barcelona is great. No, no doubt about that. Let's get back to normal. Let's get back to that next normal. Let's get get engaged. Let's look at those face to face conversations and make it meaningful. Make it get the most out of your conferences. Get the most out of your engagements. That's what we're all about here at industrial talk. Go to that event. Great. Great. All right, people be brave dare greatly hang out with Mike Bold brave and Daring Greatly you're going to change the world thank you very much for joining we're gonna have another conversation Great One.

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In this week's Industrial Talk Podcast we're talking to Ricky Watts, Industrial Solutions Director at Intel Corporation about “Utility 2.0 and Modernizing Utilities Supply and Demand through Digital Transformation”. Get the answers to your “Utility 2.0” questions along with Ricky's unique insight on the “How” on this Industrial Talk interview!

You can find out more about Ricky and the wonderful team at Intel Corporation on solution to modernizing the Utility Industry by the links below. Finally, get your exclusive free access to the Industrial Academy and a series on “Why You Need To Podcast” for Greater Success in 2020. All links designed for keeping you current in this rapidly changing Industrial Market. Learn! Grow! Enjoy!

RICKY WATTS' CONTACT INFORMATION:

Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wattsricky/

Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/intel-corporation/

Company Website: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/homepage.html

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OTHER GREAT INDUSTRIAL RESOURCES:

CAP Logistics: https://www.caplogistics.com/

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Industrial Academy: https://industrialtalk.com/industrial-academy/

Industrial Dojo: https://industrialtalk.com/industrial_dojo/

Safety With Purpose Podcast: https://safetywithpurpose.com/

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

vehicle, Balyo, talk, distribution centers, industry, people, company, concept, driving, industrial, tech, moving, equipment, world, john, floor, expensive, autonomous vehicles, important, solving

SPEAKERS

Scott MacKenzie, John Hayes

Scott MacKenzie 00:04

Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott MacKenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go Alright, welcome to the industrial talk podcast. Once again, we take a journey into why industry is so doggone cool. I'm telling you right now you're bold, you're brave, you dare greatly you solve problems. you innovate like nobody's business. You're changing lives and you're changing the world. That's why we on this podcast, celebrate you, the industrial hero, that's who you are. Thank you very much for what you do. And that's why we love you here on this platform. In a hot seat in the industrial talk hotseat, we got a gentleman by the name of john Hayes. He is the director of sales at a company called Balyo. And we're going to be talking about autonomous vehicles. So let's get going. Yeah, so there's some challenges that we are experiencing. And and of course, you know that the industrial talk platform is all about innovation and being able to apply that innovation, creativity to apply those solutions to industry to be able to be better, stronger, faster, the Steve Austin approach, and Balyo is no different. We're talking about autonomous vehicles. Now, before we get into that particular conversation, let's just have a just a recap of industrial talk to Dotto again, if I keep on preaching the necessity for education, it's out there, if I keep on preaching the necessity to collaborate, that the people are out on industrial talk, and they do want to collaborate, they do want to solve problems. And thirdly, if we're talking about innovation all the time, and how that innovation is applied to each industry and how they're using that in innovation to well make you better, provide greater customer service, everything in between. It makes sense. So Industrial Talk 2.0 is a focus on being able to make that process the education, the collaboration and the innovation process simpler, because we need to bring people together, we need to be able to have that conversation in a big way. And john Hayden and the wonderful team out of Balyo, they're just like right in the thick of it. And they've got solutions that are very, very important. Now, let's get on with the interview. So we're going to be talking a little bit about the over the period of times we're finding that that labor is a very tight commodity. And yet companies need to keep going. And companies need to keep their doors open. And company needs to continue to deliver good customer service and survive in this particular unique market that we find ourselves in. And of course, the conversation has to revolve around autonomous vehicles, what do we do within the warehouse? And how do we create a safer environment of course. So john and and team Balyo have a great solution. But we definitely talk about a lot of stuff that's associated with the market today. So with that said, Here's john. JOHN, welcome to the industrial talk, podcast absolute honor that you have joined and start to share your wisdom and insights with the listeners of industrial talk. How you doing?

John Hayes 03:35

Very well, thanks for having me on today. Thank you very, very cool,

Scott MacKenzie 03:38

man. I'm gonna enjoy this particular, you know, conversation, because it's really wrapped around and listeners, we're going to be talking a little bit about sort of that lack of labor that exists within today's market and sort of this push for autonomous or automatic vehicles. And then Fortunately for us, john with Balyo sort of understands that particular topic. But before we get going, give us a little background on who you are.

John Hayes 04:05

Well, thank you very much. I hope I have some knowledge and background I started in 1993. In the industry, yeah, I'm old. That's right. I'm getting gray.

Scott MacKenzie 04:19

Hair I don't.

John Hayes 04:22

I started way back then started building vehicles and then went on site to install. And then from there, I was lucky enough to be kind of adopted by this industry. It was a very, very small industry in 93. And most of those folks that I work with moved on to other companies and as did I and jumped back in finishing after I got back from a project in Japan, and sent a resume to a company that happened to have probably four or five people that I was in Japan with that was another AGV company. And it just grew from there moved into sales. Then from sales and applications, engineering into More of a strategic role. Vice President of Sales and Marketing, I think that marketing is a strong component of what we do as well. And then Director of Sales here at Balyo. So I've been, unfortunately, I've been around if you say they've been around for quite some time through the HGTV concept, and now into the EMR world, and you know, some differences, the concepts are still the same, there is still moving product from point A to point B, there's a lot of technology that we talk about, you know, this is different how this works, and those sorts of things. But in the end, I think that customers or users really only care, and can really only afford to care that things get from point A to point B efficiently. And they don't have to worry about it, why put a system in, that's going to be more problems than it's worth.

Scott MacKenzie 05:46

Yeah, for, for the listeners to define AGV.

John Hayes 05:50

And Mr. absolutely happy to do that. So he is he is kind of the catch all term that's been around for ages. And it stands for automatic guided vehicle. And you know, that goes back to the 50s. Really, a very early system, I believe Barrett was the first company that put one of those in on wires. And the fundamental principle of AGV is that path follows. So if you think about the earliest vehicle, it just ran, it had a sensor under the vehicle that looked for the wire in the floor, so the frequency frequency generator and for that frequency, but conceptually, they all do exactly that same thing today, even though most of them are virtual, using something called laser guidance using laser triangulation, they still do virtually the same thing. Now Amr is a new concept, which stands for automated or autonomous mobile robot. Really, it's a technology difference. And then it's highlighted by the way that it gets from point A to point B autonomous mobile robots path plan versus path follow. So that whole concept going back to the 50s with the wiring the floor, has been turned on this year. So use a similar technology, sensor base, much more sensor, which has a lot more sensors on the vehicle, but the vehicle itself maps its environment and then understands where it's at, and doesn't follow a defined path. It creates its own path now many companies constrain them but really that's the difference. One path plans a Mars path plan and agvs path follow. Now there are shades of grey and companies are starting to overlap AGV companies are being more Amr like but they in principle, that's really the what makes them different.

Scott MacKenzie 07:34

So why is this important? What why the why is this tech important with the industry?

Scott MacKenzie 07:39

Well

John Hayes 07:42

agvs have historically been very custom. So most vendors would build a custom vehicle every single time for every single customer. And the integration was difficult installation and integration because it required that line in the floor, keeping in mind that it doesn't really exist that much anymore. But it meant a lot more time in the field. So they were expensive. At the root of it, they were expensive, is the shifting to a Amar began a few years back probably 10 or more years ago with respect to ACD vendors putting controls on that we haven't vehicles ever again, being vehicles being high street Ale, which is one of the companies we use lambda in Europe, those types of vehicles platforms and putting controls on them. And then the structure of going to a controls platform that didn't require infrastructure. So that wire in the floor or the targets or those sorts of things, that concept called slam and stands for simultaneous location and mapping, and almost masters of infrastructure for use that concept. What highlight said is the fact that it's inexpensive, because we don't need anything to Matt, I mean, we use the vehicle to map the facility, we don't need any infrastructure. And the systems become smarter and smarter. So as time went on, the systems become smarter and smarter, the tech gets better. But there's a trade off, as with anything, right? That new tech is still It has great promise. But it's not as stable. It's not as accurate, generally speaking, and it's not as fast as AGV technology. So it's almost like going to you take the car concept. You've got gas powered cars, right. And you could have a drag race gas powered car, you know, like the john Porsche concept of drag car. You can have an electric car. Obviously electric car is more technologically advanced. But right now there's no drag race, electric car, maybe in the future, right? So to draw an analogy, that's kind of where we're at You can, you can have a Cadillac of a system that, you know, you can trust with an AGP concept. We'll just do the job all day long, it's a little more expensive, maybe in some ways a little, you know, maybe has a little bit more maintenance because of the awkward equipment. But you know, it works. And then there's the other side. And then there's the far side is the tech of the situation, the the tech, the Amr, Amr tech in and of itself, with respect to some of the applications suitability is great, because it doesn't require high accuracy, and it doesn't require high speed. And when I say that application will make it more clear, picking applications where people walking along, or being what we call, picking those say, in an area in the vehicles will come to them. And they will place something in the bins, that doesn't require an awful lot of speed. It doesn't require an awful lot of accuracy. A lot of integration work. But you know, that's expected across the spectrum. But when you start to get into the middle ground, and then moving over to speed and efficiency, that's where the Tech has promised. But it's not totally there yet. So you know, you're just not quite yet. Okay, this

Scott MacKenzie 11:17

is all great. Well, what problems are we solving? What What is the problem that's demanding this?

John Hayes 11:24

Well, taking tech out of it, and let's just look at it as an industry. Historically, going back many years, the problem we were solving was one of our ally, it was one where you erred on the side of the company every single time, which was, I would theoretically talk to someone about, well, we could take a person off of a forklift, and that would save you X number of dollars a year. And in order to do this project, you will need to remove this many people. And you will get what you call her rate. Typical hurdle rates in the US are 18 months or two years. So it's always been at that point about ROI. And it's completely changed. So what are we solving today, I'm driving down the highway and you'll see manufacturing plants and distribution plants with banners hanging outside now hiring. And what we're solving is an inability for businesses to find people to move product. And it is a it's a real problem. And it's one that exists this move the needle for this type of equipment, it's it's wildly popular now used to be new people were looking at moving around autonomously and would back away like what in the world am I seeing here is becoming more adopted. The ability just to get Labor has eclipsed nearly any other reasons, purchases, equipment, safety is still a reasoning, certainly. But it's the ability just to find someone. And then when you do so we did a project a couple of years back for a large shipper. And everybody knows who the big two are, it was one of those. And they said that, you know, we're looking at this project because our turnover is over 100%

Scott MacKenzie 13:11

hold a turnover a people,

John Hayes 13:14

turnover of people over 100%. So what what they say, what they said they were seeing is that one of the larger companies put a put a warehouse distribution center and down the road, and people were getting paid a little bit more problem and went down the street. And you can't blame a forklift operator, he's making X number of dollars an hour, if he's going to get a nickel dime, quarter dollar an hour more, he's going to go down the street, that's what's going to happen. But you know, one of the things that I found funny is they would say, Well, you know, eventually they come back because we pay them to come back here, but didn't have you know, you have resources bouncing back and forth and those things. And when you think about trying to run a business, when your primary concern is moving product from either a manufacturing line or through a distribution center, your primary resource is the movement is that person or that equipment. So it's gotten to the point where when you have that risk, you have to find a way to mitigate it. And that's really what we're what it's coming down to. So that I think that's the problem that we're solving today. It's interesting.

Scott MacKenzie 14:24

Yeah, it's interesting, because I would imagine a lot of these distribution centers are not located where there's a big pool of skilled individuals. So that's also a problem, correct?

John Hayes 14:40

It's not, you know, it's funny. If you think about a forklift driver, we don't need a Harvard graduate to drive a forklift and god knows what the savvy ones are the ones that do look at the guy who just moved across the street, and take that Our our network over there. And and the ones that stay. And frankly, any forklift driver, when you look at the safety aspect, the number of injuries for forklift drivers is quite high. Simply because driving a forklift is not the most gentle thing on your body, you know, you're driving, in some cases, a 10,000 pound vehicle around, that's bouncing off of, you know, expansion joints and holes in the floor, or maybe running into things. So you have a lot of injury, you have a lot of those things, which obviously drives your costs up for, you know, insurance as well as workers comp and those things. So, you know, it's even though they may not be, you know, the Harvard grads of the world, they're getting hurt. And if you can find a way to not get hurt, then that's obviously a beneficial thing. And I think that my message has always been, you know, we don't want to put people out of work, what we want is a benefit, mutually beneficial position for these folks, I think, at least I think I would, I don't know that I wouldn't want a mindless job, or I was driving back and forth. Some of these distribution centers are 200 or 2 million square feet. Yeah, they're driving, you know, a half a mile. And by the end of this their day, they're, they're thinking about anything, but what's going on in the plant. So I think that having the ability to move folks into a position where they can do stuff with their mind versus just driving a vehicle over and over and over again, the same path, can you imagine, you know, eight hours a day, you drive the same path over and over and over again, we mean, people run into things because they just get tired mentally, they get tired, worn out at the end of the day, mentally more than physically.

Scott MacKenzie 16:50

And I would imagine the same thing exists, there's a greater demand concept.

Scott MacKenzie 16:55

It's there's an increased demand to I I see it out there, that there's just more movement of products. And this, this, this logistics backbone is becoming more and more important, and creating more and more demand on that. That professional that is just driving that, that forklift around. And I like the point that you talk about safety, you're absolutely spot on. I think that there's business continuity.

John Hayes 17:25

Huge.

Scott MacKenzie 17:27

And and, and you're sure you're hitting on some great, great points. With With that said,

John Hayes 17:33

What, what's,

Scott MacKenzie 17:35

what's the biggest pushback here? I mean, it makes sense.

John Hayes 17:40

Well, it's still a bit of black magic, and it is still a bit expensive, um, the pushback has been reduced greatly, mostly because of what's been termed the, you know, the Amazon effect. And I am part of it, and I bet you're a part of it as well. We had a conversation the other day, and you say, go get these headphones, because they're, you know, they're gonna work very well. But guess where I'm from? I'm from Amazon. There's an Amazon distribution center, I'm outside with Virginia, it's more than 50 miles from here. And with the truck stuff that we talked about a few minutes ago, the over the road, trucking that they can only do eight hours a day. Well, they pop distribution centers up around larger cities. So you're right, that the regular desire and need for automation means more people, more people harder to get. So by proxy, the automated equipment becomes more and more in demand and favorable. I think that it's it's not black magic any longer. The costs have come down. But even so, if you look at the paradigm, us versus Europe, the hurdle rate, or the internal rate of return for Europe, in many cases is five years or more. In the US early on, in conversations about this equipment, we're looking at 18 months to two years, which means that really we're looking at two or three shift operations and sometimes for it's a no brainer for three or four shift operations just makes because we're providing the vehicles that operate on all four shifts with no people if you thought about that very same operation, you have four times the number of people so the numbers start to make make a lot of sense. I think that we're personally I think this will start to make a lot of more beneficial use. We talked about this internally Balyo the other day, you know how do we kind of work towards being a more we're all responsible company I guess is the best way to say it. My view is when we can take this equipment and mom and pop companies can have Third, to take a piece of automated equipment and grow their business, then they can compete with and I don't want to, say, the Amazons of the world, but I think you kind of see where I'm going with it, they can grow their business without having to add the expense of, you know, multi shift operations they can grow and, you know, moving people again into this more mutually beneficial roles, you know, running a machine or working on things, or there's things that use your mind when when we can take this concept and it becomes less the purview of Fortune 100 companies, and becomes more available to mom and pop. I think that everybody's going to be a lot happier with what with what we can do in this world. But you know, it's still expensive equipment, expensive, the sensor basis, something else,

Scott MacKenzie 20:48

but you're getting there. I mean, yeah, continue.

John Hayes 20:55

Yeah, the tech, when we talked about Amr, originally, you talked about the Gulf of differences, you know, the cost for EMRs are less expensive than average. And almost all cases, and the costs are coming down. Now, one of the things that we're seeing is, the average used to be kind of built jack of all trades. And that was the expectation that I could buy an ATV and it would do just anything, you know, where it could pick from the floor and put something in a rack 30 feet tall. But if you reset your expectations of what automation can do, and you're smart, start small. This stuff can be inexpensive. So you know, you pick something very simple to automate, you don't have to start. And frankly, I recommend that you don't start with a 3030 vehicle system that's super complex, the rapid pace of change within your organization would be head snap, and you would you you entire organization would be turned upside down quickly. The thing that the new tech is allowing us to do is do things like proof of concepts and those things where we can come in and put a single vehicle system in and show you in your organization, how that works, what the process changes might need to be and how to get used to them before rolling out more and more vehicles. So most all of our aging VA Mr. Brother, brother in reports to the MH I used to be called MH I think it's called MH II now material handling industry of America. And so the numbers used to be represent we would all report our numbers. In on average, the average AGV system was about five to seven vehicles. And the reason for that was just the three line items outside of the hardware, which was engineering, installation and integration. That was the time on site really. And you had to amortize that over the vehicle cost and five to seven just happened to be the sweet spot where it started to make return on investment sense, right? The new tech allows us to put vehicles in for a much lower number so people can now afford to put a single vehicle system in and learn from it. So the tech is pushing all of us forward. It really is.

Scott MacKenzie 23:04

I like it and the what stands out would be that incremental approach, even proof of concept it I think that's great. It doesn't have to be big bang, you don't have to dig a trench of some sort. It's it doesn't have to be that complex. Now we're gonna have to wrap this conversation up. JOHN, how does somebody get a hold of you?

Scott MacKenzie 23:26

I think the best case scenario would be to reach out via the internet. That's Balyo comm www.meliar.com. And you'll be able to reach out to us as a company there. My personal email address is certainly available. That's john dot Hayes ha ye s Balyo COMM And I'd be more than happy to help. I tend to take a more consultative approach to everything that I do so pretty little to salesy with me. So I'm more than happy to just chat with people if it's something they'd like to talk about.

Scott MacKenzie 23:53

And if you type in john Hayes, if this just blows me away on on LinkedIn, you've got john Hayes. I was looking at him going, and I saw john Hayes 7953 blah, blah. No, that's impressive.

John Hayes 24:17

Right.

Scott MacKenzie 24:18

All right, a couple of things that I want to put before you listeners, once again, I love the concept, and we've got the problem of up labor, we've got to be able to look at it from that. From the technology perspective, I think Valley has got an interesting value proposition. I like the fact that we're talking a little bit about the incremental approach. I think the future's bright when it comes to this and and I think if you're driving down the costs, and and trying to have that mom and pop mindset, I think you've got a great value proposition. I like it.

John Hayes 24:54

Thank you very much. All right, we're gonna wrap it up. I really appreciate you. Yeah, we're

Scott MacKenzie 24:58

gonna wrap it up on the other side. You're not go away. We will be right back. You're listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network. All right, that is john Hayes i t y e s and you definitely can go out to john hay. His Lincoln stack card is all out there and you know what? It is truly john Hayes h A y e. s. Balyo is the company go to be a lyo.com find out more about how those that solution and what they're doing. Balyo can definitely help you and your manufacturing process as well as your warehousing stuff. It's everything that's john right there, man. I'm looking at it as that card right there. JOHN, good looking guy with the beard can't miss. Alright, once again, we are talking about industrial talk to Dotto. This is where you're going to go this is where you're going to go. You're going to go to educate, you're going to go to collaborate and you're going to glue to innovate. We are all bound together without a doubt. We have ties, every industry whatever it is, let me Valley Oh man, that's important stuff and they have ties to the warehousing and and the manufacturing world. important stuff. Reach out to him. All right. Thank you very much. Be bold, be brave, dare greatly you change the world. Thank you very much for joining the industrial talk podcast. We will be right back

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