In this week's Industrial Talk Podcast we're talking to Sandy Carielli, Principal Analyst at Forrester Research about “What You Need to Know About BOTs and Possible Impact to Your Business”. Get the answers to your “Web Scraping” questions along with Sandy's unique insight on the “How” on this Industrial Talk interview!
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Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott MacKenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go all right. Hey, welcome to the industrial talk podcast absolute honor that you have joined this particular platform that celebrates the industrial professionals that companies that get it done. You are bold, you are brave, you dare greatly man Do you innovate and boy, are we just honored to be able to have an opportunity to talk to the professionals and industry. This segment. This particular podcast features one of the best Her name is Sandy Carielli. Now her last name is spelled ca r r e. l Li Forrester is the company the topic of conversation. bots, B OTS bots. And I thought that that is a great way to start the new year. Let's get cracking. Yeah, bots. So we had a great conversation on how bots are really changing. I don't know how they came up with a couple of pretty cool terms. One, web scraping. How about that web scraping. And it just is a great word picture of what bots can do when they go out there. And they're looking for information. And so Sandy brings an incredible wealth of knowledge and insights in the cybersecurity space. And whether we like it or not, whether we want to address the elephant in the room, cybersecurity, given the industrial four dot o revolution, whatever the next one is all that digital transformation cybersecure cybersecurity has to be at pretty much at the top of your thinking when you start going down this world of digital transformation. And Sandy, let's put it this way I've never stumped her. That's not saying much is because well, I'm not very good at stumping people. But she brings a tremendous amount of doggone information, and she shares it freely and the company is wonderful. Now, before we get right into it, I just want to sort of explain to you a couple of things that are taking place within the industrial talk, rural we've, we're, we're more of a media company, now we've come to that conclusion. And we're really sort of dedicated on the stories that are really into. And we've been doing this for three years, don't get me wrong, and it's been here and there and all that good stuff. But we're really going to make a concerted effort to be able to highlight all of the wonderful human stories that exist today in industry, especially today, when we're talking about surviving which 2020 it's behind us, let's just let's say duct tape, kick it to the curb, no big deal. And let's start to rebuild and let's start to prosper and, and deploy the strategies that are necessary to make that happen. That's where we're all about, okay. And to do that, we're just going to have to have incredible thinkers, like Sandy, and others, to share with them and to share with the listeners and and to network and to grow. With this knowledge, because we need everybody sort of hands on deck, we're gonna be positive, we're gonna be optimistic, we're gonna do it with a sense of grit, and, and, and fortitude. We can't give up, we can't give up. And then again, we can't give up. We've got to do it. We've got to be able to be there coming in 2021. We've got to make that a commitment. And the industrial talk podcast, the industrial talk. media platform is all once again, dedicated to you and be a being able to highlight the stories, the insights, and strategies that industry and the people of industry bring to the world. Because we are changing the world. You're you're changing the world. That's what we're all about. All right. Sandy, Carrie, Ellie, is in the hot seat. And again, me I'm if you're looking out on video, I'm down here intellectually, Sandy, while she goes beyond and she's above above my video screen, that Sandy. And this is just scratching the surface. So I thought it was an incredible conversation about bots. Very interesting. Very. I don't know it just you gotta listen to it because it's pretty cool. And we're just scratching the surface. So enjoy my conversation with Sandy. Carrie. Hello, Kelly. Carrie Ellie. Sorry about that. Sandy. And she's with Forrester, enjoy. Sandy, welcome back to the industrial talk podcast. It's always an honor to have you on this particular platform sharing your insights and wisdom as it comes to all things cybersecurity and then someone else. How are you doing?
I'm doing great. Happy End of 2020 Scott
Yeah, I I agree with you 100% and I, I really, you know, what is I can't get a feel for 2021 like, when is it? You know, when? When do we go back to this sort of normal ish, whatever that looks like, I don't, it's all just, squiffy out there. It's just like, just sort of, and I wanted to get back to normal, whatever that looks like, but, but it makes it challenging for a business to say, Okay, now 2021 we're gonna be laying this out does, how does how do you know, all strategies, all whatever going forward? And it just makes it difficult, not just like, Okay, goodbye. 2020 2021 have,
you know, oh, yeah, well, we'll figure that out. But
we'll make it happen. Yeah. Because people like you. And creative companies like Forrester, and you guys are having your fingers on the pulse of things that are happening, by the way, which is really interesting listeners, we're going to be talking about bots. And this is an interesting conversation, just because it's always fascinating to me, but companies like Forrester, as well as Sandy, they got to keep up and in this pandemic, I would imagine Sandy, you guys have been sort of inundated with new things like, like, I didn't, I didn't see that one coming. I guess we better look into it or something like, well, that's
been the really interesting thing. Even with bots, Scott, what we found, bot attacks have been around for a while. But in 2020, the bots pivoted because in certain types of bot attacks, for example, hoarding of valuable merchandise, the definition of what was valuable changed. bots used to be focused on things like, you know, limited edition sneakers, and theater tickets, and concert tickets, and gaming consoles. And we'll get back to that in a second. But in March and April, we also saw bots going after things like hand sanitizer, and toilet paper, and grocery delivery times. And also gaming consoles.
You know, I didn't even think See, this is what's so fascinating. I get the gaming console. And I and we'll, we'll position this conversation, but I forgot about the fact that I couldn't get toilet paper. And then all of a sudden, I couldn't get hand sanitizer, and I'm thinking to myself, What the hell is this world coming to? I can't what I and I have no answers, I have no answers at all. All I just do is come on home and, and and go I have no answers.
But at the same time, Scott, you probably saw reports of people who had hoarded a whole bunch of hand sanitizer or toilet paper. And in some cases, bots or how they did it.
Is that interesting? Oh, I remember just seeing people just was shopping carts, and trolleys, eralis a full of toilet paper and whatever else they can, you know, stick on there. I didn't even really think about it. Okay, let's define bots. What define a bot what what does that mean, especially with this particular conversation, Sandy?
Okay, think of a bot is just a small piece of code that is automated and allows you to make a lot of requests against a website in either rapid succession, or perhaps, you know, ongoing, slower succession to evade detection. But the goal of a bot is to take advantage of the business logic of a site. So in the case of what we're talking about, with respect to say, gaming consoles, or toilet paper, or something like that, a bot is this small piece of automated code that is going to repeatedly go in and try to buy the item. In the case of the PS five launch, several weeks ago, bots were very prevalent in going in and trying to take advantage of the website's logic and purchase the bot by jumping to the right page before the human user could go and make all the necessary clicks. So they were able to use bots to get ahead of the line and acquire the merchandise first. That's basically what a bot is.
It's not that expensive. I mean, from a bot perspective. I mean, yeah, let's just sort of, yeah,
so, yeah, it's an interesting question. You know, bots started as something that, you know, technically adept attackers built and they would, you know, run, run, run them against a site, they might use it. And we'll talk a little bit about, you know, for credential stuffing, inventory hoarding, and it might be more of like, you know, a criminal enterprise. But there have also been this explosion of bots as a service that people can buy into for as low as, say, $400. And well, if you're trying to buy say, a PS five, maybe you're willing to spend that amount in order to leverage a bot to get the thing that you want.
Yeah. You know, and we had this conversation prior to it, it's like, I get it. I think you're leveraging technology to achieve whatever that end goal is. And, and yet, it's always up to that you're always pushing the envelope like I can see is like, how do I get ahead of the line? I I've got a kid here. I want to buy this console, I can't for whatever reason, what do I do? And oh, there's technology, okay? And then all in my head will say, it's called says do this and I get this benefit. I see that I can't understand it. But it's the ones that sit there and go, alright. The supply is short demand is high, I'm going to play that game.
Yep. And I'm going to buy five of them, or 10 of them, or 20 of them. And then I'm going to resell them on eBay for a 25 or 50%, or 100%. markup.
And it's a side hustle for some of these. Yep. And, again, it's it's how fast so so the pandemic hits, like, everybody's, I know, I was running around going, I don't know, I just got to go get peanut butter. It's not there. What do I Where's peanut butter, right? That's all I'm thinking about. But then these individuals, these organizations that are able, they're able to pivot real fast, and it's like, Okay, I got this spot. I'm gonna do it here now. And they're able to just make that shift real quick. And before the, before the market can even say, Whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, like Walmart. Whoa, now they're now there. But the savvy just because, well, we're here today.
Yeah, it was really interesting to see in the pandemic, the definition of what is valuable change. And that was a really interesting shift. That's true. And gaming consoles are kind of one of those that bridge the gap, because, yes, they were valuable before. But when everybody's staying at home, and can't go out, it adds even more value to the consoles. They were popular, of course, bots, were going to try and acquire them. And what we saw were a lot of really frustrated customers. You know, my colleague at Forrester, Jeff Pollard went weeks trying to go from site to site to site trying to get himself as PS five, and it took him weeks to finally be able to get one. And he was just seeing, you know, his, you know, inventory stolen from taken from shopping carts by bots, because he couldn't get that get through quickly enough, go onto to a site that had some available. By the time he was on the bots and snag all the merchandise. That's the reality a lot of people were facing.
So even this was a, this is a big moment. So I can, I'll sit there and I'll stick it in my shopping cart. Like I'm physically thinking, like, I'm at a store, and I'm pushing a shopping cart around. Yeah. And if, if I've got stakes in those shopping carts, nobody's gonna just reach in there and grab it. I'm thinking to myself the same thing online, where if I have it in my shopping cart, you can't get to it. But you're telling me that that's not the case.
Not always, very often what happens, it's not that attackers are taking it out of your cart, but they're able to go faster, get to the front of the line, so that in the time that it takes you to add to your cart, go, you know, checkout, start the process, by then the inventory is already gone, someone's already bought and purchased it.
Because the buckets just sit there and do this.
And skip steps, the bot can go to the right page, the bot doesn't have to worry about maneuvering the mouse, the bot doesn't have to worry about typing and clicking stop. It's much can move faster. That's just amazing.
Come on, that's amazing. You gotta just say, Wow, that's cool. comfortable. And it just sort of brings about a myriad of feelings. Because it's like, God, it's cool. Sort of
cool goes away pretty quickly when you start to realize how, what the implications are both customers and for the businesses.
So let's do that. Let's start venturing into that. This is all fine. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to live through that frustration. All my purchases are low demand purchases. So I don't really have to battle bots. Yes, you so said that.
Let's say if you're the consumer, and you've been trying for weeks to get you know, the latest sneakers or the latest gaming console or something else, and the regular sites you go to, you're constantly disappointed. What's going to be your attitude and your perception as a consumer on those sites? Are you going to want to do business with them for other lower value merchandise. So what's the customer satisfaction, customer experience impact one? You know, from the standpoint of the website, they might think, oh, we're selling everything great. But you know, the bots aren't going to come back and buy the low value stuff. If you turn off your customers, if you can't sell your customers and meet their needs, when they are actually trying to get the high value stuff, they're going to go elsewhere. So you've got a real customer retention issue, you know with that so the customer satisfaction issue from the standpoint of the website that you need to worry about.
Wow. See, that's another that's another one. I didn't realize because consumers, digital consumers, very fickle, create that friction. I just want, I see it, I want it, I've got my card ready, I want to buy it. Don't ask me to click too many times. And yes,
yeah, so let's talk about captures, because that is a, you know, a common way, a lot of people are challenged to prove that they're human. You know, the simplest ones are, you know, the click, click, I am human, but often it's, you know, see the fuzzy words and try and make out what the heck they mean, or identify the shopping into the traffic lights, right for the cars or whatever, you know, you're in the pictures. And I say like that, and I'm
not even a human being. And I fail at that. So
and a lot of people do, you know, captures can be really frustrating, particularly those ones that really require you to sort of scramble looking thinking. But that's another thing, if you put those too much in front of humans to prove that they're human. Again, they're going to get frustrated, they're not going to complete the purchase, they're going to go elsewhere, you as the vendor, as we, as the retailer, as the website, you lose business. So you have to be really careful about how many roadblocks you're presenting in front of human customers, while you're also trying to block the bots. And the, what we're seeing in modern bot management solutions. And we'll get into this in a little bit, are more creative ways to identify bots, tell the difference between what is bought and what is human. But also new ways to frustrate challenge block those bots, and make sure you're letting in the human with less friction. And that's really key to this whole enterprise. Yeah, it's hard for the bots. Yeah, not for the people.
Yeah. And, and, and to your point listeners, to your point, you know, you're, you're talking about the cost of business, you got it, you got to protect your business, you got to protect your image, you got to whatever, and you got to battle the bots. And and I like your point, Sandy about, let's make it difficult for the bots make it and make it easy for the human being. But that is a that's a that's a that's a real difficult challenge, isn't it?
It is, I would say that the technology is really evolving, you're seeing a lot of machine learning and behavioral analytics applied to the problem, so that you can better identify what is a bot? And to be clear, you've got to identify different types of bots, you know, there's simple ones that are very basic, probably easier to find. But they also get more sophisticated as the technology improves.
How do I get up Sandy, I mean, I'm just a small little business here. I don't want to make people frustrated when they go to my site, but I can't keep up with that.
Well, and you raise a good point, you know, I have a friend who was victim of a very different type of bot attack known as web scraping, she runs a speaker's bureau, and web scraping bots, don't try to buy inventory. Instead, they just try to glean information quickly off the website, they're used a lot in competitive situations. So for example, one retailer, you know, somewhere might look at a competitive competitors retail site, and look at the prices of various inventory, scrape that information, and then put everything on their site for you know, $1 less or something like that. In this case, what happened to my friend was, she runs a speaker's bureau and she found that all of her speaker information, photos, BIOS, whatever, was scraped on to an and posted to this other website that was billing these people as their speakers and trying to push them out and sell them as potential speakers to, to events. And, you know, she, she found that she was able to reach out to them, you know, get them to shut down, turn it off. But that's really hard to do. And that you know, and you don't always have a lot of legal weight behind you in order to get that stuff removed quickly. Even if you managed to get a cease and desist. You know, put in place, there's still the time to take it down. And there's still the whole process. So it's not like it's getting removed right away.
Yeah, see, that's, I see two sides to this coin one. Yeah, I don't want to spend too much money, right? On a product that I'm sort of researching. And so there's that one side of me that says, All right, Best Buy, you know, Best Buy, you know, they got you know, they're they're doing their stuff too. So I know that things are I can say Okay, I got it for this price. Right, done that. There's the other side, which is just exactly what you were talking about the speaker's bureau.
Yeah, there's a you know, there there are a lot of ways that bots can take advantage of people and of organizations. I think that the PS five situation, shed a lot of light on that inventory hoarding use case. And a lot of people who maybe had never heard of bots before now know what they are. But the important thing and the reason I really was eager to talk to you about this, Scott is that make people's lives difficult in a myriad of other ways. You know, there's the web scraping example. There's something called credential stuffing. Talk credential stuffing. Yeah, let's talk about credential stuffing. credential stuffing is based on this idea that when attackers compromised websites, and they steal usernames and passwords, which happens a lot, how many times have you gotten those notifications that, you know, we take your privacy seriously. And by the way we've been breached, they use those two sentences usually happen in rapid succession, right. And once they've breached, you know, the attackers have this whole treasure trove of usernames and passwords. And usually the first thing you do as a user is you have to change your password on that particular website. But a lot of people reuse their passwords. And even if they changed it on one website, they probably didn't change it everywhere. And so what credential stuffing is, is attackers take the credentials they've stolen, they sell them on the dark web, and other attackers buy them. And so they now have access to credentials that worked on site as well. attackers are gonna then take those credentials and go to another site and see how many of those same username password combinations will allow them to log into a different site. And once they can do that they've taken over a number of users accounts. Let me give you an example of one time this happened. You remember when Disney plus was launched maybe what year and a half ago or whenever they launched last year?
I was excited, FYI. Oh, yeah. Was
this Disney plus is great. You know.
The first movie I watched was the love bug, the classic love bug.
Nice. Yeah, we've been watching the Mandalorian. And I eagerly watched, you know, the Hamilton Yes. video we over the summer. Yeah, gotcha. But a lot of people not long after Disney plus launched, had the issue where their credentials were taken over. And it wasn't the Disney plus had any sort of compromise. It's that attackers were able to take previously compromised credentials and try them against Disney plus, and Well, it turns out a lot of people signed up for Disney plus using passwords that had been associated with other accounts. So that's kind of what happens. And that's why that's why bot management solutions are so important, because they can help block those attacks and frustrate the attackers.
Again, I love this conversation. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic conversation. But I need solutions, or I'm just gonna just get rid of everything that's online right now. But so speaking of solutions, so we've talked a little bit about web scraping, understand the one that really credential stuffing that scares the hell out of me. And it's not. It's, it's just interesting that it's like I said, it's, it's got it's simple, and it's elegant. It's like it, sort of, I get it. And yeah, you know, okay, let's talk a little bit about solutions. Well, yeah, what can we do, please? So
let's talk about a couple of things. First of all, it helps. And I think you make a good point here in terms of the elegance, these are attacks on business logic. These are, for the most part, not attacks on technology, or security, these are taking advantage of how the application works. from a business standpoint. Most sites require a login. Anyone who sells anything has to have a process for which people can put items in their shopping cart and pay for them. That's how bots are getting through and what what they're actually trying to follow. They're they're trying to do it faster or differently, or, you know, in more rapid succession. So a couple of points on this, from the standpoint of the end customer, the best way to protect themselves from credential stuffing attacks is don't reuse your passwords. Because if one password is compromised, if you're not using it anywhere else, it's much less useful. So if you don't reuse your passwords, and if you implement two factor authentication for sites that will allow it, it's going to be much harder for an attacker to compromise one site, you know, or take take previously compromised credentials and use them to to compromised another site, they're not going to be able to they won't have a valid password.
So before we move on, give us a brief definition of two factor authentication.
Yes, so two factor authentication is basically a way of requiring additional information to, to access an account, combination usually have something you have and something you know. And the most common approaches for this are you have to enter in your username, your password, and then maybe somebody sends you an SMS message with a code and you went through that or you have an Google Authenticator on your mobile device and you have to enter In a code, usually the way that it works on a lot of sites, so those are the most common approaches where you enter in your username, your password, and a randomly generated regularly changing code that helps validate that you are actually who you say you are.
Interesting, but But again, we talked about friction, and that to me is a pain.
Yeah, it's one of those things. Yeah, it adds a level of friction to it. And I think what we're starting to see is additional types of authentication based on be hit user behavior and other things that perhaps help limit some some of those requirements. It's an evolving area. And you know, there are definitely people at Forrester that cover that in a lot more depth than I do. So I won't go too far into it. But I will say, you know, relying just on username and password is, you know, a recipe for it is
risk. It is. Now you're spot on on that one, you're absolutely what else can we do.
So now we get from the standpoint of the site owner, the website, the vendors, and this is where about management solutions become really important. There are a number out there, I won't mention particular vendors, but you can, you can find a lot of them, you know, probably the vendor that handles your web application firewall or your CDN, or that's, you know, helping with some of your hosting, a lot of them will have some guidance in terms of bot management solutions. And the thing about about management solution, it does a couple of things. One, it helps detect the bots. And the best ones are going to have multiple ways of detection. And be able to detect both basic and sophisticated bots and continue to learn and detect evermore sophisticated bots. So there's the detection element. But then there's also the response the protection part. And it's not as simple as blocking. That's certainly part of it. But it's also about knowing when to challenge you know, when to throw up, say a CAPTCHA, which we already talked about, we hate it. Whether you can have more frictionless ways of challenging that aren't as frustrating to the end customer. But also doing things that are going to frustrate the attacker so that they want to go elsewhere. So what if someone is doing a web scraping attack against you, and they're trying to find prices, and whenever they try to scrape the information, they're presented with prices that are false, I spoke to a vendor A while back that told me about a retailer they were working with it was having a real issue with this competitive scraping thing. And what they did is they created a bunch of pages that had fake prices, that were actually higher than what the prices actually were. So even when the attacker changed their prices to be lower than what they saw, it was still a lot higher because they were being presented with fake data. So it ended up being a very frustrating useless attack for the attacker because they weren't working with real data.
That's just, I just look at it. From my perspective, if I'm, if I'm a big company, I can do that. But I'm just let's say I'm just an individual that's trying to live his dream. And and I don't have the resources, the knowledge and all of that stuff to do it, we've got to figure out a way of being able to just satisfied, I mean, well, we're just gonna get hammered all the time.
Well, here's the good news for you. in that realm, there are a lot of management solutions that play to more of the small medium business market. There are a lot of hosted solutions or managed service solutions out there. So doesn't necessarily require you, Scott to have the time and the expertise to do a lot of this. Just have someone to manage it. Obviously, there's a little bit of an investment in cost for you. But, you know, there are many of these that are tailored to smaller businesses. And very often the pricing is based on number of sites, number of pages or amount of traffic. So, you know, depending on how much traffic you're getting is going to have an impact on you know, what you're paying.
out of pocket. Yeah, see,
okay. I like that. And once again, you know, the negative side of all this bad stuff that we were talking about, there's always the positive side of people that are have their hearts in the right place. They want to create solutions that truly makes sense that help people.
And there are a lot of them. Yeah, this is an industry. I will tell you, Scott. Yeah, I have seen so many new or in the last few years, bought management solutions. Companies are investing in this area, they're putting a lot into it. The solutions are evolving really quickly, you know, more more protections, more detections, more investment in machine learning, better reporting better integrations with the rest of the infrastructure. This is a market that is you know, still still But it's maturing quickly. And it's perceived, rightfully so is really high value. People get it, particularly in industries where they've been encountering this, you know, for years.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it's just an interest. And it's not going away. I mean, the future is, whether we like it or not, it's that genies out of the bottle, it's gonna, it's gonna, you need people like you and Forrester and other companies that are reading right at the front. You know, once again, you guys are serving a major service. Yeah, I just I can't, I can't, you know, diminish it anyway. I mean, it's just an amazing thing that you guys do, because?
Well, thank you, it's, well, you know, to be able to get some of this out to the public, as terrible as the PS five situation was for a lot of people, I do think it served a purpose of making bots a little bit more mainstream so that there's much better awareness of what they can do. And you know, you're starting to see you mentioned, Walmart earlier, Walmart published a blog a couple of weeks ago, talking about how they were fighting back against bots. Can you imagine any retailer doing that or acknowledging the bob problem a few years ago? No, I guess the level of awareness and transparency is increased. And that's going to be a really good thing. defensively. See, that's
that's a great point, Sandy. And, and that's been a real challenge, especially anything with cybersecurity. You have to have the conversation, but nobody wants to have the conversation, because it's it. It's just a real challenging topic. But you have to have it and kudos to Walmart to be able to have that conversation saying, yep, we're constantly being hammered. We're trying, we're doing the best we can. This is the world we live in. Sorry, that type of thing. I love it.
Yeah. And I really hope to see more of it. I have to say another thing I really hope to see, if you look at the PS five situation, you know, Sony was the manufacturer, they were not the retailer, and a lot of the retailers, you know, had the bond issue. If I'm Sony, what I want to be doing before I, you know, launch the PS six or seven, or whatever comes next, and decide on distribution to the, you know, various retailers is have that conversation about how are you going to make sure that bots aren't buying our inventory? Because that was really bad PR for us last time around?
See, it's it's such an interesting conversation. Sandy, you're right, I agree with you. And given the situation with COVID, everybody was sort of spending more time at home gaming consoles, were a big deal playing games, watch a streaming, what else you gonna do? What else you're gonna do? do this? And then it's done. And then you go back to whatever. All right. Again, listeners, we're gonna have all the contact information of Sandy out there. I think this is a fantastic topic, I think you need does does force her have anything sort of like blogs of some sort that talk about bots and stuff like that?
Yeah, I've posted a couple of blogs. If you go to foresters website and go to my page, you'll find a couple of blogs that I've written on the topic of bots. And, as I've mentioned to you before, my blog is fully publicly accessible. So definitely feel free to take a look at the blogs I posted. If you happen to be a forester customer, we also have a number of reports that I've written, or co authored around bots, so you can take a look at those. And, you know, definitely, you know, feel free to reach out.
I love it. Sandy, thank you very much. And we're gonna have all that stuff posted out on industrial talk. It'll take you right over to Sandy. Just I want to make sure that it's easy access to the information. Don't worry,
though, trust me.
No friction. Don't have a dog in this fight. The only dog I have in this fight is just get that information and, and getting you in connection with people like Sandy to solve problems. All right, Sandy. All right. Thanks. Happy New Year.
Happy New Year. Happy 2021.
All right, listeners hang tight. We're gonna wrap it up on the other side. So stay tuned. You're listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network.
All right. Thank you. Again, thank you very much for joining the industrial talk podcast. And boy a big shout out to Sandy Kerry le companies Forster fantastic people incredible insights. Thank you, Sandy, for sharing your knowledge on bots big time. And that's just another thing you're gonna have to be aware of, you know, this whole digital journey that we're all on this whole ability to be able to do things better, stronger, faster, whatever those Steve Austin approach comes with some challenges, right? But because of Sandy, because of Forrester because of other people like her. They're there to help you succeed and navigate those waters. That's a big attend for on that one. All right. Industrial talk medium. It's going to be new that's going to be 2021. We're going to be definitely pulling together. There are a number of incredible programs and strategies going forward. So you got to stay tuned. Do not go away. All right. Again, be bold, be brave, daring greatly. You're changing the world hang out with people that are like that. Thank you very much for joining the industrial talk podcast. We're gonna be back with another great interview shortly.