Industrial Talk is onsite at the OMG Quarterly Standards Meeting and chatting with Dr. Detlev Richter with the Digital Twin Consortium about “Digital Twin – Establishing trustworthiness through security”. Tune in and hear more about the importance of securing digital twin and Detlev's unique insights on this Industrial Talk.
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Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/digital-twin-consortium/
Company Website: https://www.digitaltwinconsortium.org/
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Welcome to the Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go.
Alright, thank you very much for joining an Industrial Talk. This is a platform dedicated to you industrial professionals all around, you already know this, because you're bold, brave and daring greatly. You're solving problems, you know all of this, because you are worthy of celebration. And that's what this platform is all about. It is you know, deadlift This is the number one industrial related podcast in the universe. It's all backed up by data that you get, you can sort of test it and you can figure. Anyway, we are here in Austin, Texas. It is the OMG meeting. And it is once again a collection of individuals and professionals that are really focused in solving problems debating those problems, and being able to help all of us succeed globally. Yes, we take them for granted. They are the heroes of this story. In the hot seat, we have Detlev Richter, we're going to have to have asked you to say the company's name, but we're talking digital twin, we're talking about trustworthiness. We're talking about security. And it is important, especially in this world today, let's get cracking. Say the company's name again to suit there it is. It's it sounds like a candy. Yeah,
I think it's a testing inspection and certification and distinctive xootr. Let's call invented the safety for steam engines, I think 150 years ago. And since then, we taking care about society. And let's call it all the technology has some risk, and you have to overcome them. And you have to figure out what kind of testing and certification inspection you need it. No steam steam engine can explode. That was the starting point that now we are looking about digital twins, cybersecurity and all the topics. So it's the same, let's call it period like it was 150 years ago.
See what's really cool. I remember when you said steam engine, I remember there were pictures of a steam engine that had exploded the boiler and all you see the tubes just like it's the tubes everywhere. It's pretty sophisticated solution out there. But I'm glad somebody was out there. ensuring the safety anyway. But your your business has to be booming because there's a lot going on.
Yes, I think the business is booming. But only as an aside, I think the challenges are, are really incredible, because we are changing the world from for what I call static, the machines everything to building so static in the past, and we had some control and safety security was achieved on paper with some checklists. And now with the digital twin with the connectivity with all the cyber and AI, everything is moving, everything is changing. Everything is learning. And now they're very fast. Yeah, in seconds and minutes. And now the question comes, how do I do the job that I have done 150 years ago, how I ensured a steam engine, how I ensure a system of systems of digital twins that are moving around and doing the right things? What is the right thing? No,
it what's so interesting about it and what's is that we're doing a good job and saying, Hey, business, you need to be a part of this digital stuff. But you gotta you gotta get your business digitized, whatever it might be, what does that look like? I don't I'm a manufacturer, you need to do it. But then you also need to ensure that it's safe. Yes, that secure all of that stuff. You know, okay, I do it and you don't want it. That's what you that's what you do.
And but that's what I'm here. And I think a special thing is that we have to bring the internet, what's the digital twin consultant is doing, you have to bring different people doing different experiences on this field together. And then we came out a session today it was awesome. Because somebody did it already and proved that a digital twin can ensure security. And that's what I like to drive you need to write architecture that something that most people don't understand what is it when this can get? Well, they will. Because it's the next big big thing I would say after the internet. But it's important that we take we develop now the foundation, what do we need there? What kind of ingredients capabilities that the twin can give us this what we need safety, security and let's call the right product for community and now it comes in is really complicated because a hospital needs different things, then a transportation and so on. So you have to you have to understand what are the fundamental topics and how you bring it down into into the vertical. And then on the other side? What comes especially in Europe, you have regulation that some governments right, let's call it good regulation or bad regulation, but they don't understand what technology is. So let's call development home. And, and that's why I'm here. And that's what what I see, let's call it two studios and Kevin, you have to bring these things together, that the regulation will develop in a direction, that that what we see as a potential solution. It's exactly that what you have to do in the future to ensure complicated complex systems of systems that are becoming like animals, they will learn, they will behave, they will change, they will become very smart and very clever. I
see you guys live in this world. And I love it. I mean, I'll eat this up. I'm a sponge, come learn with me. But the reality is that if I was if I was the manager of this property, and somebody came to me, digital twin, okay, why is that important? Well, you get to do X, Y, Z, that's why it's important. It's a blah, blah, blah, I get some insights. Where do I start?
Oh, did does it does a very good question. So I think you, you have to start with the problem, I think you have this, you're building some problems that you cannot really resolve as of today, if it is the energy consumption, if it's something else, and then you have to say, Okay, if we would have the digital twin of some of your data, and then you have a model and information, we could analyze what the people are doing, at which point I switch on switch off, and you optimize energy consumption, you optimize other topics, but you need the data and you need a model and what most of reputed don't get, if you don't have the model, you don't have a reference, a lot of people say, Okay, I need data data. So future, whatever. But I have to let's call compare the date or the information against what, and then I can say, it's good, it's bad, what to do. Right? Right. Right, right. It shouldn't, yeah, gives me some model. And even if the first model is maybe not perfect, now I compare the model with the real world, and I learn, sometimes I have to update my model,
because you might just you just, but that's the beauty of having that model. Yes, you continue to refine it, you get it, you make it better and better and better and better,
every day, every minute and make it better. But now the regulation comes in and say, deregulation says, You have to be complete and safe and secure even before you start. But now the model learns, and the asset learns. So how you ensure this, how you make the team ensuring that they are not exploited?
And the question what I have is, how, how do you how do you do that? What's the what are the little the tools that say, Yep,
I think the tools, the tools that you first accept that this world is complex, the world is changing the world is incomplete. And that the architecture, what we have to bring into the world. So the model talks to the, to the asset, and the asset kind of feedback loop. And if you go down deeper into what I'm doing, testing, functional safety, the highest test coverage you achieve, if you take a good model and your acid, and they test against each other. What is the digital twin, it's doing this testing all the time. So notice, testing what I do today, one minute, I do every second, every millisecond continuously, where's my problem, but then you have to develop the digital world exactly that you can do this.
And you bring up a good point, because once you have a digital twin, and you're testing it against it, then it takes into consideration that if there are any changes that are taking place with the asset, the physical building, is just automatically reflected in the digital twin. And then there's a there's a disconnect, yes. Okay. So what do we do? And how do we resolve that? It's interesting,
I think that exactly the topics, now we have to develop the digital twin in a way that you have this feedback loop, or to call it a consortium, the changes of the building coming into twin, and the twin is then let's call it giving something back to the building. And if this loop works, then you say, Okay, I'm in sync. If the loop doesn't work, you are not answering and then
you ask God, so the action
is off. Today, somebody has to figure it out. But as long as it isn't soon, it is safe, it is secure, and it's doing the right things. And so the testing that we do today, one hour, one week, whatever I do continuously, so therefore I said guys, don't become nervous if we implement this digital world in the proper way. You have to counter measures to ensure things that we have to ensure.
Of course, I'm always we're still at the very beginning of any executives just like we got and wherever we're creating all of the, the information or all of the standards and its actions around all of that because we know that eventually, it's just
it's it's like a sink from the feeling. It's like all the steam engine explode around. We are flying into Austin, Texas, to the digital twin consortium to think about okay, what is the right countermeasures? And we meet here a lot of people say this could be the right one, this could be the right one. And we are at the beginning, but that's that's why I'm here. That's why automated driving the court to suit is driving to think about how we make the community safe and secure. And how to utilize technology to do it for us.
And see what's interesting to us is the fact that when we start talking digital twin, it's not it's all everything's digital, everything can be digitized into a twin. Yeah.
And we need and this is what, what a lot of people, I think today, most people don't understand why I need a digital twin. I think in five years, you will not sell any product without a digital twin, because then it's unsecure. It's unsafe, and a twin gives you this feedback loop. If it's designed in a proper way, or by this concept, or working twins together, we had yesterday the discussion if Hanlon, twins deliver me a result. Hello, twins giving me the same value? The value is correct. Today we have 1/10 was somewhere and we trust the descendants Correct? One times? Well, it's never correct, right. But if I if the twins deliver me 100 different, let's call the same value, it has to be corrected. It's the physics of nature that is behind what we are doing. And we have to understand and learn and translate this physics of nature into no law regulation requirements, because at the end of the day, if you go into building, you have to trust that the elevator goes up and down. And we are still engineers.
See, this is an if everything is is, is in a digitized form. We're just going to take it for granted. Eventually, yes, just it we
will. We will like with the internet and the mobile phones, we will in 10 or 20 years. I think it's another discussion that we all have are the you know the terms Metro virus and Omniverse. And for some things you think, okay, it's, it's, it's fancy stuff. But if you if you take the 3d out and say I don't need a 3d, but if you take the same concept, for every piece are surrounding me, I have a twin and this twin takes Canada operation is correct, the maintenance is correct, the securities achieved. Yes. If you bring it all in the metaverse, you would see that you could let's call it virtually do a lot of things. And we will see also a lot of solutions there. But I'm coming from the regulation from the safety and say we need the concept first to manage the complexity. And if you think about energy, distributed decentralized energy, if you think about autonomous driving, and all these things have to be controlled, and the principles have to be similar and the same.
The other thing that I want to make sure that we don't miss out on, say how this digital twin, this digital twin itself is a sophisticated representation of something physical, yes. Okay, you got it, it's sophisticated. And it is, if you if you're engaged in it. So it's you're constantly refining it and making it better. So good. That's good stuff. But then there's this need to secure it to to in to ensure that nobody just can pop in that this, this becomes really important. And it needs to be protected. And so there's that trustworthy, you've got to be able to make sure that that's trustworthy. Even though there's a dis there could be a disconnect, is that still trustworthy?
We have a lot of topics in front of us on one time we are working on what kind of qualification what kind of testing do we need for the model at day one, add it to life cycle, that has to be developed, because the model is now very important, it is more important than the real world because if the models are not correct or not, if you cannot trust the model, then the complete concept doesn't work, it falls apart. And this is why we are here and sitting together as if we go in the direction of the digital twin, we have to develop the criteria. What is a good model, how I qualify a model how I ensure that the model is ongoing. But there's a there's a let's call it physical principle in what I would say if you have a complicated robot, a machine whatever toaster and you have a model and you'd like to hack into attack boasts that I don't see it, you have to do it in real time at the same moment in time it nobody can do it because this is a machine this is a model. So at least this concept gives us the transparency something is happening. And then and we they had a discussion. You get oh, this digital twin says something is wrong. It could be a security attack. But you get a message immediately. Today in some companies memorized three, six months later, did a header tag. Yeah. And Dennis oh, what should we do? And this is this is the first step. The second step is we have to spend some effort and consult some and together how we let's call it ensure the proper environment for the models. Same Same topic. I think that is I told it to a colleague. There is no 100% security and safety and that's what we are saying the system is resilient. It goes down don't realize what's at it comes back millisecond later, some functions are not there. Because something has happened, we say no, we don't trust this functionality or capability. But we are not allowed that our, our city or community goes down and has a blackout. So therefore, we have to let's call work at exactly the right moment in time and then do the right things with topics that aren't tech.
Again, I mean, this is all great stuff. And I'm really very happy with the fact that you and the organization are really tackling these questions. You have you meet quarterly, you get to, you get to sort of noodle on it for a quarter and then you get to talk about it some more. And you keep on refining it. And you keep on having that question. Are we at a point right now, where we are actually seeing it in operations? Like, like this property, this property? If it would be great if this was digitized in a twin way? And then I can, I have all my lights and sensors, and H back and whatever my opinion, you
have a lot of things that we discussed, I think I will not, there's one famous car manufacturer in North America that is focused on immobility, there are a lot of twins and they are working perfectly and therefore a charging station is free for you if you join and so on. They are on our store, we had this discussion, the definition of twin and what is already implemented. And what we can take as a use case a test case, somebody came in and presented this is my architecture I implemented an energy solutions two years ago, it's a Citrine. So but they've never called it the twin but they they have a model and they use the model. So you have you have if something comes up innovation, then you have let's call a lot of topics that people believe they understand what is it when and then some people have to tune already in production and usage but they call a different a different lexicon Yes, a different and now we bring this in this community here to get and say okay, what we already have, we have proven so I flow into Allison unsought Maya idea is new to say the twin will take care about safety and security. I came out of a presentation 20 minutes ago, we developed a twin and the twin addressed all the security attacks very and we have it in production and two years. Safe. So this is why you have to bring collaboration, you have to bring the people together, here and then you say okay, if you have it, then you have to reference that I can drive to standardization. No, I can convince the others in Japan and Korea, this is the way to go. Because fly into AusNet. Look to this guy. He did it.
This is exciting. Excited about this stuff. He is telling you, I'm really jacked about it. I'm glad you're doing this. I'm glad people and OMG and all of the consortiums are doing and all of the little sub work groups and everything. Hey, you know, my only regret. Like I'm too old. I want to be younger now. Yes. Fountain of Youth. Yeah. All right. All right. How do people get a hold of you there? How do people contact you? So I'm on LinkedIn. Cool. All right, man. That's Detlef You are great. All right, we're gonna wrap it up on the other side. Thank you very much for joining. Again, you need to reach out with deadlift. So stay tuned. It will be all out on Industrial Talk. So see as
you're listening to the Industrial Talk, Podcast Network
All right, you know, your call to action. Your call to action is to reach out to Detlef It is imperative. It is so important that we create a trustworthy foundation in all of this digitalization, and individuals like Detlev the consortium digital twin consortium, the focus on a security platform, it's so important because I know if I if I was running a manufacturing business, and I didn't trust it, to go into this whole digital world, and I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't want to bring on that headache. So you need to get engaged. You need to start being a part of OMG you need to consider looking at digital twin Consortium, and by far, reach out to Detlef in a big dog on way. All right. Industrial Talk is building a platform, a platform dedicated to you we have so much out there. Your story needs to be told. You need to reach out to me tell your story. All right. People will be brave dare greatly hanging out with Detlef and you're going to change the world. We're going to have another great conversation coming from OMG shortly so stay tuned.