Industrial Talk is onsite at the OMG Quarterly Standards Meeting and chatting with Mitch Tseng, Vice Chair, Application Working Group with Next G Alliance about “6G, what does it mean and why is it important“. Tune in and hear more about the importance of 6Gand Mitch's unique insights on this Industrial Talk.
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Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go. Alright, once again, thank you very much for joining industrial talk. And thank you so much for your support. We are on site right now. right this very moment, we're gonna be here for a week we are in Austin, Texas. And we are at the O M, G. Fourth quarter. I think it's the standard screw. And everybody's tripping about how to be how to how to use standards to make our life better, because this platform right here, right here right now, this platform is dedicated to you. Because you are bold, you are brave, you're daring greatly. You are changing lives and you are changing the world. That's why we celebrate industry professionals all around the world on this platform.
It is never too soon. Mitch is in the house. And it has been just an absolute joy to be able to corner him into a conversation. Let's get cracking. Mitch, thank you. Thank you, Scott. Glad to be here. Are you having a good? Can you this is not a conference, this is not a conference?
This is a gathering is that is it? That's what it is? Yeah, it's the older older experts are the brains that you can overlook? Did you see that? That was LightWave in media found that people here in the room? I'm telling you that it is true. Yeah. I mean, I, and it's, you know, it's a good feeling, Mitch, because I'm not the smartest, which is not really a hurdle. But I'm not the smartest guy in the room by any stretch of the imagination. And I and I think what you and and the rest of the, the OMG contributing members do is truly special work. And it is because you you're establishing and then it goes across the board. There's multiple organizations that are talking about standards that impact these, these important technologies innovations and, and just making things better. So that's that's, that's my that's my soapbox for today. There, Mitch.
All right. Before we get cracking with the conversation, give us a little background on who Mitch is. Oh, hi. Hi, everybody. My name is Mitch Tseng. I am a consultant. I have my own consulting firms. And but I have been following the development of the communication industry, I started when I was young, I started as a wireless communication for Nortel Networks. And then I'll go to Nokia. Right. So after that, my career is actually kind of riding on the success of the wireless communications. But when the world is actually engaging in the development of standards, a 2g, 3g, 4g, which is heavily involved with, I contribute to that part. But then when the world is going to the 5g, I actually find my new love that is IoT. At that time, we don't call it IoT, we call it machine to machine communications, m to m. So I kind of changed the venue a little bit, I left Nokia and then start my own consulting firm, and started working on this one. And to me, this one organization to start to order today's IoT work, they focus on the middleware definitions. And the later I joined, I see, which is the main body I'm doing right now as part of the I, O and G. And I've been major contributors for that organization.
And I gotta tell you guys, I mean,
it would be interesting to, you would never know, but it would be interesting to know, where we would be without organizations like OMG, and what you're doing because you're helping facilitating this, this progress, this, this adoption of, of technology and innovation, just because while we need it, you know, industry needs it, we need it in a big way. And we need to be able to have standards and sort of put those bumpers around it and say this is what you need to do and have that common lexicon. What's the problem we're dealing with? What what is that challenge that we're dealing with today with IoT and all of that stuff? What are we? What are we dealing with? The couple of things that we started but mainly but 1012 years ago, then as when we tried to exploit what is the machine-to-machine communication is originally people thought there's just some kind of silicon, SIS system on chip. And there will be you can build devices. And then later on, people find it oh, we just build a bunch of sensors. And if we can connect those sensors, if we can process that, then we can build this IoT, the Internet of Things, which is a big buzzword.
years ago, will you talk to that? IoT, you can even pick up a girl in the bar who talk about IoT, believe it or not?
That's here till Friday.
Yes. But then the thing is that gradually, in IC, we started building the framework document. We try to try to build a systematic way and the guidelines and then those, well, we don't have standards per se, but then it's kind of pretty pretty much the rule they should follow you
If you want to build a Iot, you know, versus a male infection. So we have been engaged in those parts. And then on top of that, we have many white papers. And then the most successful ones that we're doing is actually the pseudo so called a testbed process. Right now I'm in IRC, I'm also serving as the chair of the testbed Council, right? What we do is that we get the ideas from the people, and then turn them into reality. And then we do the testbed and test drive to prove that the idea should work.
And that's important. Nobody really wants to take a test drive and have them be the guinea pig of whatever technology that is being promoted at the time. And, and but again, so you painted a picture that all of a sudden, everybody just like, hey, yeah, now we can have our equipment, communicate with equipment, and you know, and be able to do that, and I'm gonna plop a device there, plop a device there, plop a device there, and then be able to just sort of magically be able to collect all that data and, and not just sort of dig up the whole world and running cables and everything. And that's where you, you shine. Yeah, that's how we started because in a conventional communication world that of course, you know, the wires and cables. And then when we go to IoT, all the sudden the wireless become the major part of the carriers for their part. And, of course, the the wireless industry. And along with the 5g development, we have a lot of colleagues in those a major telecom vendors, they're talking, they're bragging about, oh, by year 2020, there'll be 53 billion with a B 53 billion devices. Right. And, of course, originally, I talked to my colleagues from the same company, they kind of downplay it a little bit. They say, Well, maybe by 2023, Adobe 27 billion, still a big number. But the thing is that, how do we see that because you probably actually, like today, you've probably run into a lot of IoT devices, but you just don't feel right. And then I think the industry has been glossed over that you say, Hey, we've got a lot of IoT devices out there, but we don't feel it. What do you mean by that? Well, this device is maybe hidden somewhere, right? Just around you. People thought that the IoT devices, just your cell phone? No, it's more than that. Right? Just like inside inside this hotel, for example, there are so many sensors over there even like those like smoke detectors, whatever. They are all connected, right in the modern hotel. And then of course, like when you go to thermostat, your thermostat, people like your room. Yeah, people always talk about that part. But the truth is, in IoT, you actually you need to focus on the verticals. And unfortunately, this is also the parts cut overlook by many vendors. Right, for example, like I'm capable engineer, and then I designed some wonderful board. And I can talk to some sensors and wisdom communications. And they thought, Oh, I am in IoT business. But the truth is, when you have device and the you don't have a service associated with that, right, the device, it is just a piece of metal or piece of the electronics equipment lying on your shelves. So in I in ICU, we learned it a few years back, so So if today, you're in IoT business, and then you and you feel like you're not successful, that's probably why you didn't reach out to us by them. Because otherwise, we will tell you that IoT is not a traditional business, that one day of traditional means like, you buy one, you're going to design one and sell millions. IoT turned out to be a very, it requires a lot of customization. And also, when you get the idea is not enough, you need to have a business model behind that. You need to build a business in we call the verticals, from one end to the other music from the service on the top, all the way down to the sensor and actuators. You need to make sure that everything is there. Right. Otherwise, you have no business. So that's why a lot of people try and flop.
Yeah, there were it was sort of a gold rush. Well, it is that because is well, there's a group of smart engineers, they think that they can do electronics, and they can make computers, and they know the communications. They know what to do how to do IoT. But the truth is, every every, every customers, every customers, when they wanted to have IoT services, their demand will be different, right. And normally, what I talked about is vertical, the vertical services are vertical, I always focus on that you have as the service, whatever you want to provide. And at the end, you have some sensors, but in between all the necessary links need to be there, then so when you have somebody asked you to do something that how do you check, you actually you're growing the business, you will have a successful design or services. I normally advise people that you check on two things. One is the data flow, data flow, because when in the last century we talked about last century, not that far away, right? The last century we're talking about communications means we connecting devices are connecting terminals. But now we have new concept we are moving data. Think about is like whatever we're doing, we actually just try to get the data moved, and so on.
You know, design the vertical, the first thing you check the data flow, once the data flow is there, then that means your designs, okay. But the other thing I think is much more important, but it hadn't been put enough emphasis on by the designer is that the cash flow, the cash flow means I am building a service. And if a service without being finance or being paid, that is a debt service, right? So, and then we are in business, we are not in charity, right? We ledger, so, you make sure that when you design a service, you make sure all the cash flow are there. Be careful on this part. Because sometimes the end user may not be the direct payer for a service. That one example is like, let's say, Nora, in Dallas area, we have some insurance company that will help me put a dongle in my car. And what they do is that they want to monitor my driving habits to determine my interest rate next week, next year, and the end user, but the people who actually pay for the services is actually the insurance companies, right. And those things tend to be overlooked because people, they they're designing the system, but they kind of forgot to talk about it, I need to talk to my client, I don't talk to the people who want the services, is to understand their need to understand their pain. And that unfortunately, cost a lot of business to become successful.
So this is interesting, a couple of points that I thought was, it's interesting that if you can just sort of like moving data. Yeah. And it is it's just from this device, whatever it is, let's say a motor. Getting it into wherever that that that in point. Yep. And in between, there's just hands off. And there's this, you've got a map that all out because I know that there are a number of companies that are just saying, Hey, we've got a device, and that device sits right there. Yep. And I got that. Now, I'm an IoT company. But I but it just sits there. Yep. There's so many other, do you think there's a value or a benefit? If I was a company that offered from that whole vertical? Like, if I came to you and say, Hey, Mitch, I see that I gotta get into the IoT game, or IoT or whatever the game, but I don't want to just sort of parse it out. I just need to have that complete picture. Yes. Is that the way to go? Actually, that's what it will be the way I recommend it, right. Because you can have like a break it apart. So you can have a multiple supplier for the stuff, that's okay. If you by doing so, if you can lower your cost, by all means doing that. But my worry is that the design because what your customer really want, right? They may not, they may not be able to will document it. So that means like, if you just get a get a contract a book about what they want, and at the end, they may feel want you to do out of adjustment over there. And then sometimes we designers after you design the system, it may be may not be in past may not be possible to do those modifications, or without without causing a lot of changes and delays. Right. So my recommendation would be yes, you probably should focus on whatever you're doing. And then you build it an end to end fashion. And then you try to talk to your customer closely. Right, just like I'd say, maybe well invite them to a Sunday night dinner or whatever, right? Just make sure you've maintained a good relation, and they understand what they really want. Is there a value of sort of incrementally approaching a project, let's say, Okay,
we see that this is sort of a low hanging fruit, this would be great to be able to collect data off of this particular asset, and then run it all the way through and get it into whatever the form that we need to get it into and be able to perform the analytics and then
you see it, is it it because I know that there are a lot of well challenges, a lot of stories that float around out there that it didn't go as well, because I've got a bitter taste in my mouth about IoT and these projects, or whatever it might be, I would want to go for some victories and say, See, I got it, and I got this and the ROI is there. And we able to get it to you know, be able to do that. Yes, God does carries a million dollar observation you just have many years ago, people kind of hung into this platform. Right? You see like a whoever company used to provide something there, there was a I have IoT platform, I can do whatever you want for that. But turn out that the IoT, the solid platform, yes, they can provide some kind of general capabilities. But on the other hand, I mentioned earlier, IoT is actually a very highly customized business. So your platform may be maybe okay.
For now, but what if like the project does, as you said, they want to have some kind of incremental changes and they might want to step up for another another step, then will your platform be viable have to support that? Yeah, right. Because if you design the platform become very generic advert very beginning. It may be over and over kill. Oh,
Many of the small projects. On the other hand, on the other hand, if you're if your platform is not generic enough, right, then you, you actually end up like a you lost you lost your capabilities for expansion. So what are the trade off? That's, that's interesting. Yeah. You're, you're hitting on all cylinders. We got cash flow, we got moving data. And I love the point that you're, you're, you're paying and on customization. And it is highly customizable. Everything. And so you need to be able to have that vertical capabilities that that, that has that flexibility, but go into it at the beginning, right? Yep. It's saying, Okay, we're here, but we're gonna probably go here and just be able to can it do that be able to have that more macro view of what where you're going and what you're trying to accomplish? Yep. For the listeners out there. Let's talk a little bit about
you. You came up to me and you said six g.
Subject. Yeah, let's, let's change gears on that just because I want to know, help me and help the listeners,
teach us a little bit about one, 5g, what is that all about? And then be able to take that bridge and go to 60? Okay, what sort of walk us through that? Right in the telecom evolution, the stuff on 2g, which is I started my career 2g, 3g, 4g, they all focus on the network evolutions, right. So you provide a you provide a better services, for example, you you provide a from changing from sending texts to you be able to streaming data, and then we go to 4g, you can do the broadband, the broadband services, right. So a lot of actually a lot of people asking me that. Okay, when we go to 5g, what does the industry brought to me as an end user? I will say, Yes, this broader band experience brought up broadband music in 4g, we already call this called a broadband services. And now it's a broader because the bandwidth has become bigger. And the one that you probably don't feel much, but then the truth is, you 5g, you actually not only that you can downloading the dunks downloading the data real fast. You're updating stream is actually much faster than 4g as well. If you got the truth it right, then Oh, you just popped into
my my cell phone right here says 5g on it? How do I know that? That's a true 5g.
Yeah, it got something that you get into to do a little bit testing. And then for those part, but the truth, the truth is that you had so now you see that a lot of people they are doing the media, by individual people, they are using wireless communications, and provided media, they upload a stream for those. That actually is one I will say the major contributing factors for 5g right now. But the challenges that are in 5g, when he was designed the he has three goals in mind. The desert, the quarter embb, extended mobile broadband services, and mobile broadband is one. And that one actually proven to be great. But there are two other things. One is called it urllc ultra reliable, ultra reliable the communications. And the third one is MMTC is massive machine type communications that you see provide a very robust services for the network. And originally they're targeted to automotive, self driving automotive, and then also like maybe a remote surgery, right, you can do that. And then that's a very important, and then the MMTC is actually targeting for targeting IoT, but then, right, right, right. Right. Yeah. But then the I think the industry may be struggling a little bit right now. There are several things that is a automata urllc. The technology is great. But the applications and the law, the regulations that didn't catch up yet is autonomous driving, for example, it will be a great thing that if we use a very reliable network for that, like a 5g, but the thing is that the the the legislation, for example, when you have a self drive autonomous drug car vehicle, got involved in accident, and new proven that the vehicle is at fault, then who is liable for that? Right. And right now, I heard that in Germany, just this week, I heard that in Germany like a Mercedes, they actually they claim that yes, they will be responsible for those parts if their car, their autonomous car, get involved in the in the accident, then they will they will take care of that. That's what I heard. I haven't really checked it out yet. But the I do know that Japan, Japan is the only country I know of they actually put into legislation, when there is a Windows accident involved autonomous car and autonomous cars are proving the fault, it is a car manufacturer is liable for that. So so you can see that people are talking about this autonomous vehicles and then for those parts, but I will say right now at most will be like a level two level three kind of added advanced driving assist. And then when you really want to go to the full, autonomous car
They would require a little bit and then of course, they hurt our industry, right? And then the reliability, the Polaroid remote surgeries part is very important. Right? You don't want to
see you don't want to. You want to be on the money on that. Yeah, originally you want to cut a tumor, but just because of this deter, and then you cut the artery. Yeah. And then of course, the liability on that one, the risk of liability on their way here, kill it. Right. So urllc is struggling. And the third part on this massive machine type communications, they, the industry found out that there are multiple, what are the access solutions for IoT? And some of them, some of them actually a lower cost compared with
wireless communications, satellite ones. So how do you how do you kind of define your niche, and to make sure that you can provide a much better service compared with other access technologies, then you there's something that you need to look into. And the solution by the industry right now is to focus on the so called the private network, the private net, the private network approach, so that you can have in a controlled environment and you provide a services for smart factories, right. smart factories, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. So those are the things that we were looking for now. Okay. So but but, but again,
60, so you got 5g, I get it, you gotta where's the six g part come in? The interesting part is that we talk all of this 2g, 3g, 4g, 5g, we all talk about networks, right? Because this is the kind of game that the network operators and there were vendors, they they've been put a lot of emphasis on. But then the question is, network itself does not really produce value, by itself, it will be the whatever services that run on the network will be there will be the one, right generate the value, for example, you can build a 20 lane highways, right, if you don't have enough services on the on that part, then you're not going to generate revenue on day one. So right now in six g, we have noticed that there are a couple of things. Number one is that the frequency bands we want to deal with is getting higher and higher. And that can unify G, we talked about this millimeter waves, millimeter wave, you'd have services that are above 24 gigahertz up to maybe you have 100 gigahertz, though, the cell site is actually much smaller than a conventional Sara services row and people are talking about maybe 100 meters, 200 meters, right, compared with the three to five miles in the in the sub sub 6 G there was a resist, yeah. Then it also then people also talking about the terahertz sub terrors. And when you go to that part, the sales side may be wheezing 10 meters, right. So that means like a your conventional network architecture may need to be rethink. So one, one challenges I have for the wireless network operator, is that your network management scheme? How are you going to modify this? Right? The private network may still work, what about others, others. So what we have been talking in was a group of people in the in North America right now. And there's another organization called The Next Generation Alliance,
they started about two years ago, they focus on what kind of services that now the 60 should provide. And one thing we have been driving is called is accorded the immersive digital world experience, immersive digital world experience. And in this case, we are going to provide a lot of sensors, a lot of actuators, maybe just to try to build up a environment that you're living in it with all the devices surrounding you. Right then and then you Yeah, I picture then so you actually you provide a great services for you. And then you don't even notice that. And of course, we are talking about the future. And also people ask me about like the privacy stuff, then I think I got there are something that we can work on. And one example I have is that I ran our targeting like a 6G by 2030. And I chose picture myself in 2035 and retired how to retire and retire today in a retirement home and then all my rooms actually with a lot of sensors they help provide all the facilities for me to help me right then there'll be great right and then that's how we provide his brand digital world experience. And of course the the interfaces the machine interfaces will be done by a lot of xr or AR VR high resolution images, like holographic whatever stuff and and and that will be like a something to help you facilitate your living. And of course the same technologies can be applied to manufacturing. So there so you get a facelift on the smart factory the people no longer
Where are those heavy goggles, you can have out of stuff, they help you. So the work environment will be kind of blending with you. Right? That's an objective I think about, I thought you kind of get a goose bump on that one. I'm just telling I am, I really am. I mean, you've hit on moving data, cash flow, which is important. I like this immersive world. Next Gen Alliance services, digital word, you would just
look at that you're making me a better person. They're much less immersive digital world spirits.
I might be staying at a Holiday Inn, but
I feel like I can do this stuff. You'll I really enjoyed this conversation. There's a lot going on. And you're right at the tip of the sword on this stuff. At least you know how to talk and you know this stuff. Don't. I try been trying to do that. I tried to the evangelist with this. There he is six g evangelists right there. He's the one that came out. Not me. I didn't I haven't done on my notes. But he's the one that said it. That's Mitch 16. evangelists. How do people get a hold of you, Mitch? You can reach me through email. The best way to do that because I travel a lot. So it's email@example.com. And t-infoserv.com. There it is, man. We're gonna have all the contact information for Mitch out there. So don't, don't you fret go out to industrial talk. Reach out to Mitch. And as you can tell, he knows a lot. And you will not be disappointed. Mitch, you are wonderful. I enjoyed the talk. And The pleasure is mine. It's wonderful. It's on on this side. All right, listeners, we're gonna wrap it up on the other side. Please stay tuned, we will be right back. You're listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network.
All right. Once again, thank you very much for joining us industrial talk. And absolutely, thank you very much for your continued support. We're building a platform, a platform that is a collection of problem solvers, passionate about education, passionate about collaborating, and definitely, definitely passionate about innovating, so that you are a success. It's all out there on industrial talk. Thank you to Mitch in. I'm on a stack card out there on LinkedIn. And you could tell he's right in the middle, right in the middle of all of this innovation, he's thinking and his team and his community, thinking through all of the interesting challenges that exist to help us succeed. Right there. Mitch, I'm pointing at it right there. Again, industrial talk is here for you is here for industrial professionals. It's here for young people deciding on what to do, because I'm telling you right now, we've got to inspire Mitch inspires. You inspire your knowledge, your insights, your your passion comes through, we just got to keep going. Because it is there is no room for failure here. You need to succeed. And that's what industrial talk is all about. It is a platform for you. So that you can educate so that you can continue to learn by the way, you can collaborate, you can definitely innovate and find out what's going on the latest and greatest delivered to you by the best around the world. All right, be bold, be brave, dare greatly. We're going to have all the contact information for Mitch out on industrial talk and hang out with him because you'll change the world. Thank you once again for joining. And we're going to have another great conversation shortly. So stay tuned.